- My initial post about Chris's take on Ingrid's statements and why I disagree with his critique. This was updated to clarify something in response to a comment from Chris.
- A follow-up post to reconcile my claim that Ingrid had called Dr. Horton a bridger, after I was told she said that she had not done so
- My challenge to Chris after he claimed I'd misrepresented his position in what I wrote. I updated this after he responded, offering to talk to him about this directly and publicly.
- The initial back-and-forth about my offer
- Chris's refusal of my offer and my response, leaving the offer open
- After waiting a week and not hearing anything Chris, I had to assume his refusal stood, so I posted his response to my challenge, which I'd deliberately held back when I made my offer to dialogue
- Chris's final response is given below.
I remain deeply troubled by how things were handled. Also, I still don't think Chris has understood either what I've said or why I've said it. I pray I'm wrong, and that we just have an informed difference of opinion exacerbated by some poorly phrased notes. I don't think so, though, and that disturbs me more than anything else, given that we're talking about discernment ministries here...
Jason,
I have real heretics and real false teachers that I need to spend my time warning the church about. I've already publicly laid out what the Biblical doctrine of Unity and Separation is on my radio program and I stand by that teaching. Furthermore, I stand by the fact that neither Dr. Horton nor myself have run afoul of what the Bible actually forbids regarding Unity and Separation regardless of what a few deeply misguided and misinformed people have written on their blogs.
If you and Paula want to spend your time warning the church about orthodox proclaimers and defenders of the Biblical Gospel because you believe their guilty of not abiding by the doctrines of primary or secondary separation and if you want to adopt Ingrid's newly discovered rank in the army of Satan known as the "Bridger" or spend your weekends slaying windmills, then go ahead. Like I said, anyone who claims to have the gift of discernment but cannot properly identify friend and foe needs to take up a different career.
But, while you're warning the church about men like Michael Horton and myself, Dr. Horton and I will be warning the Body of Christ about the real threats that she's facing and equipping her to stand against her real enemies with real Biblical doctrine that centers on Christ and Him crucified for our sins. And when permitted, will even challenge the false doctrines and teachings of heretics to their faces and call them to repentance in their presence or in a personal conversation, knowing that heresy is not spread through casual contact nor does conversing privately or publicly with a heretic make one 'unclean' or a partaker in their heresies, nor does the Bible forbid a Christian to do that. In fact, the balanced Biblical view is found in 2 Thessalonians 3:13–15 which states:
“As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.The correct Biblical understanding of separation informs us that we are to do 2 things when it comes dealing with heretics and false teachers.
- Have nothing to do with the person who doesn't abide in sound doctrine (this is referring to church fellowship not casual contact. How do I know? See point 2)
- Warn him as a brother (this is impossible to do if "having nothing to do with him" means we can't even have a conversation with that person. (conversation ≠ church fellowship)
Chris
I have real heretics and real false teachers that I need to spend my time warning the church about.
ReplyDeleteHm. Had lots of time to warn everyone about Ingrid. In fact he's going to make dubious discernment a regular feature. I though the had real heretics to warn about? I wonder who will be next on the dubious discernment segment?
Furthermore, I stand by the fact that neither Dr. Horton nor myself have run afoul of what the Bible actually forbids regarding Unity and Separation regardless of what a few deeply misguided and misinformed people have written on their blogs.
Yeah, "with such a one do not even eat" I guess that's a little extreme.
If you and Paula want to spend your time warning the church about orthodox proclaimers and defenders of the Biblical Gospel
again, isn't that what Chris has done? What is it with all this public hypocrisy? How come his reasons for not talking to you keep changing?
This has been a frustrating exchange. It is clear Chris is not able to see his role in this painful situation or any error on his part. I hope that at some point God will grant him awareness and repentance. Unless that happens, I am concerned that he will continue to alienate himself from friends who care about him and I fear where that will lead him.
ReplyDeleteFraming the issue as separation. Is that accurate?
ReplyDeleteNo, remember Gayle, he told us he realized he was wrong about something way back in Nov, but he can't unilaterally apologize for whatever it was that he did wrong because he isn't sure the other party will return the favor.
ReplyDeleteWhat kind of an apology would that be? That's bargaining, not apologizing or admitting guilt.
He doesn't have time to debate, but he does have time to lay out all his points and declare himself victor. How one-sided, but typical of a guy who thinks he is incapable or error.
ReplyDeleteAnd this letter was for public consumption by his groupies. Reads rational, thought out. Not like the private emails this two-faced hate filled, threatening bully sends when he thinks no one else will see it.
"Michael Horton and I"! What an ego! More like "Tim Horton and I" in reality.
He continues to raise his strawmen. No one is calling Michael Horton a heretic and is trying to warn the church about him. Some of us believe he may have made a bad judgement having his picture taken with a real Heretic, but I read Ingrid's blog as warning about Warren using every opportunity to expand his popularity, this simply being an example. It was not an attack on Horton.
ReplyDeleteChris refuses to acknowledge that, since he has no way to win in that event.
No the entire situation, to me, is the pair of emails filled with hate and threats against a fellow Christian. It's one thing to disagree and discuss. It's another to be so hateful in an email that no response is possible or warranted. I absolutely mean it when I say I would have turned the emails over to the local deputies if they had been sent to my wife.
Chris, we love you and pray for you. I don't understand what has changed in you in the past six months or so, but I beg you to review the time and see what happened. Your heart has become very hard, and your pride has lead you to believe you cannot make a mistake. Brother, we all make mistakes. And we all are forgiven.
Jim said "He doesn't have time to debate, but he does have time to lay out all his points and declare himself victor. How one-sided, but typical of a guy who thinks he is incapable or error."
ReplyDeleteDon't forget, he has time for farmville too. In amongst slaying all the (cough cough) REAL dragons like Ingrid and Deb Dombrowski.
And one of the best blessings that God can give a person is a smart critic. -- Chris Rosebrough May 1st, 2009 at 11:19 am
ReplyDeleteSorry, Jim. For some reason, your last March 20th post got flagged as spam, so I just saw it...
ReplyDelete